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LetsDiscuss: the excuses and denials: islamic jihad | "me no big chief ...
today mumbai - tomorrow it can be munich or montreal or manchester or manhattan or miami or milan for too long the world has been in denial, excuses are created to justify inactions - “Islam is a religion of peace” - that is a myth - “those who kill in the name of islam are not true muslims“ - that is a blatant lie. those who wish to believe otherwise there are text in Quran, that justifies killing of “non-believers”
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And on the other side of the border...
I wonder if Pakistani public is really so innocent / naïve to believe all this!?!?
http://www.hotklix.com/?ref=content/152704&in_showcase
i think this bastards should shut up.... it will be better that they dont instigate the Indians, such foolish comments should be banned or else India will have no option but to attack and destroy the entire nation....
it is because of idiot politicians like these on both sides that we have so much of tension since the past 6 decades between both the countries..........
Pakistan and Pakistanis have been in denial about this Islam inspired terrorism that it has become a habit now to deny everything or atttribute to Hindu or Israeli "zionists".One Malegaon investigation linking bomb blasts to a Hindu outfit has suddenly been grabbed by them as a life line and now behind all attacks across India it is the RIGHT WING HINDUS whoa re to e blamed.What a denial of reality and what a head in the sand attitude.
thats right meribaat, they just will never accept their negative points will always give the most crap reasons to prove their innocence.....
I would like to repeat that terrorism knows no language. . . In all attacks of these attacks, muslims are being killed. So what is this Islamic Terrorism? It is just an act to justify their crime. . . Muslim terrorists are doing by using Islam's name and Hindu Extremists are doing by using their religion. . . Thats all. . . . . WE ALL WANT TO JUSTIFY OUR CRIMES , TERRORISTS TOO. And they are doing it by using their religion
@ Shaan, not entirely true. terrorism knows no language, but it knows and follows its religion.
The "islamic terrorist" has a clear agenda. To recreate an islamic Caliphate of all muslims living nations - and enforce the Shariya Law on all - even the non muslims.
Al Qaeda - the biggest threat - has given sanctuary in Pakistan by Musharraf. That is where the WMD has always been.
islamic terror: it still is Pakistan, stupid
The world needs wake up to the real danger before it is too late.
Please do no try to deviate the argument by making allegations of "hindu extremists". Hinduism never had extremists, the Hindus are standing up for their land and religion. If they are extremists today, its because of the teachings of Islam.
Its voices like yours that has been deliberately and very cleverly fooling the world. This is not about "crime", its about Islam - the religion of terrorism - the religion that dictates killing of non-believers.
Really wanted to discuss many things here but now no more. . . BTW Thanks for the compliment that i can make people fool
I wish if i could make you a fool
You just wrote, "I wish if i could make you a fool" -
like you have been "making a fool" of everyone else? That is a blatant admission of your purpose, is it not?
Go on, I challenge you to prove your points. Prove to me that
1. Islam does not direct killing of non believers.
2. That al-qaeda / hizb-but-tahrir like organisations are not fighting for a caliphate
3. that these killers are not muslims and stateless as claimed by Zardari.
The truth is Pakistan - its Army, its intelligence ISI are all fighting for this "cause of islam" - Musharraf's own words.
Zardari is too scared to say these killers were Pakistanis. They belonged to the Lashkar - e -taiba. For an investigation will prove the involvement of the world's most crooked military machine is involved in this terrorism.
Want proof?
This time a "pakistani" terrorist has been caught alive who has been giving all the evidence.
I dont need to prove anything as i am not supporting anyone. . . .
It was the sarcasm dear. . . Sorry that you did not gt that
And yes, Musharrf n ISI are against India. It was Mushrraf who plotted the Kargil war. . . And as i said earlier, he is stating that he did that for the sake of Islam to hide his real agenda cause there are peace loving in Pak also who just do not want any war with our country
A very heated discussion between two of the best Rambhaiyyas.Sadly this is reality of today's world. Two viewpoints equally correct and good. Shaan definitely did not deserve the strong words awmyth. He is definitely not a terrorist and so is majority of the muslim population in India. We have to accept that terrorism is definitely a creation of islamic fundamentalists, but we dont really know who is pulling whose strings and I will request awmyth to not take this straight at all muslims. Some muslims are involved in fundamentalism, who knows some christians and hindus could also be behind all this.
For the sake of peace and universal brotherhood(which is also as much of an islamic concept as jihad) lets give each other some space and compete in the positive sense. Lets stay united and behead these terrorists as mercilessly as they have killed the countles Indians.
@ Garfield,
As long as the the Islamic Laws of Jihad exists in the Quran, the only universal brotherhood you will have is the Islamic brotherhood - the Nation of Islam.
Why do I take it at all muslims. Because no muslim will ever denounce these laws, for it is their devout belief that the whole world should be governed by Shariya Law. You will only get excuses. Like these killers were not muslims. They were stateless actors. Or reference to hindu extremists.
Islam is a religion that contradicts individuals basic human rights.
"terrorism is a religion in itself" - then why almost every terrorist atrocity all over the world is carried out by muslims? Do you really believe "hindu extremists" will cause violence globally? A 9/11 or even a 26/11?
You may want to swallow their propaganda, I follow facts. I write my thoughts, that is my right to freely express myself. You may not agree - feel free.
But do not advice me on what I should or shouldn't say or write. The world is victim of islamic terrorism (not hindu terrorism) because of non-muslim voices reluctant to know the truth.
Dream away for a "universal brotherhood" - it will never happen.
I am out a here. Time to part ways with Rambhai.
@awmyth-it does not make sense that you want to quit rambhai, just because some one does not agree with you. All I said, wash shaan did not deserve the strong words, he is definitely not a terrorist.
And why wouldnt a hindu extremist cause 9/11 and 26/11. eventually from self defense it can become an overtly proactive form of terrorism. Anyways I always maintain you can hold ur own opinion,just like i have mine.
hey awmyth bro u cant do this, u cant quit rambhai.com....
please its a request, i know what u are feeling and ur reactions are completely justified.....
but dont mind me asking a question to u.....
what if a person from our religion that is Hindu religion does such an act....
lets take a current example, In Orissa and Karnatka Hindu extremists killed Christians and raped the nuns mercilessly....
i hope u are against them.... now if i point a finger at you and say u are of the same category or all the Hindus are of same category then, it wont be fair.....
so in a similar way the majority of Muslims residing in India hate these terrorists more than us as they have disgraced the name of Muslims and Islam.....
see brother if today all of us starting hating each other by the name of the religion than we just cant imagine where the world would be.....
i know this might be sounding as a lecture to you but then what i felt was necessary for us i have written it, please think over it with a calm mind and come back to rambhai as we will always be waiting for u.....
if shaan would have been supporting these terrorists or any such thing then he would not have had revealed his identity in public....
this goes to show that he also hates the terrorists like us and is a true Indian before being a Muslim......
Garfield bro, in fact your comment was the best one as you talked about Brotherhood. . . Terrorism is a religion in itself and all of us must unite to stop the growth of it
I dont think terrorism is a religion, im sure its a big business for somebody out there. i dont know whether that person is a hindu or muslim or christian, but he sure does not care much for the impact of his actions on the victims. He is more concerned about the economics of the whole thing.
In fact i believe it has to be an industry, which various people support for various reasons. What we need to do is to somehow shutdown this very profitable industry which has some of the biggest factories in afghanistan/pakistan etc. If this industry is not shutdown I suspect each country will create its own competing industry...
May be you are right. . . Just as America nurtured the terrorism in Afghanistan by giving arms to fight with Russia. . . . . Selling arms is really a big business out there in itself
@ Garfield,
As long as the the Islamic Laws of Jihad exists in the Quran, the only universal brotherhood you will have is the Islamic brotherhood - the Nation of Islam.
Why do I take it at all muslims. Because no muslim will ever denounce these laws, for it is their devout belief that the whole world should be governed by Shariya Law. You will only get excuses. Like these killers were not muslims. They were stateless actors. Or reference to hindu extremists.
Islam is a religion that contradicts individuals basic human rights.
"terrorism is a religion in itself" - then why almost every terrorist atrocity all over the world is carried out by muslims? Do you really believe "hindu extremists" will cause violence globally? A 9/11 or even a 26/11?
You may want to swallow their propaganda, I follow facts. I write my thoughts, that is my right to freely express myself. You may not agree - feel free.
But do not advice me on what I should or shouldn't say or right. The world is victim of islamic terrorism (not hindu terrorism) because of pseudo-secular voices remaining silent to acknowledge the truth.
Dream away for a "universal brotherhood" - it will never happen.
I am out a here. Time to part ways with Rambhai.
Awmyth,
Almost all religious texts can be twisted and modified for personal or individual gains, and thats exactly happening with folks who are worshipping OBL and his peers.
True, Islam is one Religion it doesnt give anyone the permission to point any fingers towards itself but they have absolutely all the freedom and right to claim anything about Jesus, Krishna or Buddha.
Now coming to the point of Pakistan, believe it or not it has a State with in a State ie a Civil Govt and a Military Authority and much of the Civig Govt is under military all the time everytime, and thats the problem.
Secondly, please dont part your ways from rambhai, please! We want people like you who are bold and truthful at the same time, a seldom found breed in human beings these days!!
I meant that the person who is following the path of terrorism cant follow any other religion as all religion follows the peace and brotherhood. . .
hey shaan bro i hope u havent felt bad abt this discussion, i wonder sometimes why is this hatred in the minds of the ppl towards each other.....
but this makes my hatred more strong towards these terrorists and i wish that they die the worst possible death in human history.....
WDM2A bro, as i know its mentioned in Quran that never insult any other religion or god of any other religion cause Allah sent many messengers and prophets before Islam and they may be the founder of other religions, so it will be a sin if you are insulting any of them. .
hey shaan has Quran been translated into English language.... i mean now i want to know what exactly is written in it?????
And Christian and Jews personalities are mentioned many times in Quran. . . They are also important for muslims as they were also messengers of ALLAH. . .
Denny bro, as i just said i dont take anything personally. . . Specially when somebody is emotionally charged
Ya its in English, Hindi and many other languages. . .
@ Denny, Garfield, wdm2a,
this is not about whether you agree with me or not. If you do not, you write your points of view.
I write about islamic propaganda. That so cleverly divert attention from the truth. Here is the classic example:
There is one of the killers caught red-handed. Who has identified himself, his contacts and the training he received and the final orders to "kill till his last breath". Anyone who STILL tries to find other possibilities is infact saying this terrorist is lying. That is clever and deliberate attempt to conceal the truth. There is only one of you here doing it, shaan333.
This is his comment on the other thread.
..."there are few possibilites about terrorist attack in Mumbai. . . 1. Pakistan organised that 2. Any terrorist group did that. . . In this case, you cant blame Pak cause they are also suffering because of it. Hope that you guys are having idea about attack on JW Marriot hotel in Pak 3. Any Indian extremist group did that ( any religion) 4. Any political party organised that just to create the scene for ongoing election ( our politics is so dirty that i could not ruled out this point ) may be these points sounds funny or idiotic to others but thats what i think about this issue"...
In the face of overwhelming evidence - the killers own confession, no "true Indian" can even think of the explanation 2, 3 and 4. To even suggest that "any extrimist group - any religion" could have carried this out is denial of truth - an insult to every person killed and injured in mumbai.
The aim is to repeat it over and over again till all other voices talking the truth stops. That guys is the definition of PROPAGANDA. And the muslims have mastered it to fool the world at large.
I recognise hypocrisy and propaganda - and I speak up against it. What annoys me is to be told what I can say or write. I presume none of you know shaan333 personally.
I am sickened by "indians" who would rather believe muslim propaganda than trying to find the truth out for themselves. That is why I am out of here.
@ Rambhai,
may I request you to unsubscribe me so that I do not get alert of comments posted?
I was under the illusion that this was a site to discuss "news" however different it maybe; and be open to all points of view - I find it just another site where members takes sides with one's comment against anothers' without trying to find the truth by themselves.
awmyth, first of all let me apologize if you feel that im against you.I'm not against you or anybody, Im just debating your point of view. First of all i would like to make it clear, that the person who is orchestrating these attacks is neither a muslim nor hindu nor anything etc. He is somebody who is extracting the maximum profit out of the situation (monetarily or socially or whatsoever). He is using Islam because of being a neophyte religion to serve his own motives. WE know that muslims in NWFP are economically backward with not much modern education. Its easy to brainwash such people. Religion is never the cause of any war, it has historically been used to serve ulterior motives. Mohammed Ali Jinnah did not form pakistan because he felt muslims should have a separate nation, it was because he could not become prime minister of India.
Even some extremist could start using Gita as a justification of their activitiea - "Na koi marta hai na koi maarta hai, jao Arjun aur Khsatriya ka dharm nibhao." etc. etc. What Im trying to say here is that we the people of India, should not start picking on innocent muslims just because the attackers followed islam to their death. Who knows wht is the intent or motivation behind the whole thing. All of us dont see the bigger, behind the scenes picture.
@ garfield,
the article I submitted was about islamic terrorism. Shaan333 wrote "So what is this Islamic Terrorism? It is just an act to justify their crime"... I disagreed and put my points across. I asked him direct questions which he refused to answer.
I like Shaan333 am entitled to my poit of view. It is my belief that it is not that the terrorists use Islam to justify their actions, but it is that Islam tries to deny its true ambitions by calling the terrorist non-muslim and stateless only AFTER the killing has been commited and their TASK ACHIEVED.
If this is a rational discussion to find the truth, and not a propaganda, Shaan333 is obliged to answer my questionS. I had written three questions: " Prove to me that
1. Islam does not direct killing of non believers.
2. That al-qaeda / hizb-but-tahrir like organisations are not fighting for a caliphate
3. that these killers are not muslims and stateless as claimed by Zardari".
Ask yourself, if everything is honest and above board why he does not want to answer.
But you come and tell me that Shaan333 did not deserve my "strong words". You cannot do that - we cannot judge how others write and express themselves - that is our fundamental right.
@ Shaan, you got my logic quite right.
You say "pak is at the top of the list" - with reference to Mumbai killings - where a terrorist has been caught alive and giving evidence - it should be the ONLY item on your list.
The terrorists are trying to divide India? You are doing even a better job by suggesting that the Mumbai killings could have been carried out by other religions - it doesn't take much to read you mean Hindus.
India is at peril because of writers like you - forever trying to twist the truth.
AWMYTH bro, i am not getting the logic that why you are always gettin me wrong? . . . What i am trying to say that do anything with these terrorists but dont call everyone a terrorist. . . From the very beginning, i am opposing these terrorist acts but you are always gettin my words in a wrong way. . . . In the possibilities i mentioned, Pak is on top then the terrorist group but still you are thinking that i am supporting terrorist. . . . Kya yaar, ab Mintos khao aur dimag ki batti jalao. . .just kidding yar,so ab iska bhi load mat le lena. . .ok?
Garfield bro, these terrorists or whatever, just want to break India and the simplest way is to create clash between the citizens. . . And i think, they are getting success also. For example, AWMYTH is not getting my points and getting angry on me that i am supporting terrorist. . . .
We, citizens of India, need to unite to fight against terrorism but we are fighting in ourselves over terrorism. . .huh
I know awmyth becomes angry too early. I was victim of him on one issue and I lost him as friend there after. The only thing I done was that I told my opinion to him in the reply to his email. (Awmyth, we should keep democracy. If topic is not debatable then there is nothing more in the topic)
Cricketgod - why do you not say that I joined your cricket directory but you passed on my email to your colleague who started spamming me.
And that is why I asked you to delete my account and my personal records from your database.
You allready forgived me for that mistakes. But problem again arised when I tried to say democratically something to your problem. Because you didn't liked my answer you ask me to leave friendship. I always wanted to have you in my friendlist but again I say be cool.
@ garfield,
As you bring up Gita in reference here, I'll write this.
There are legitimate (declared) war and there are illegal wars like terrorist insurgency - killing of innocent civilians. Mahabharata documents the events of a declared war.
It documents Arjuna sees his step-brothers in the opposing army and questions why he had to fight. Because he was reluctant to fight his own relatives.
Let us accept the war refered to is the historical event and not allegorical as argued by some.
The Gita - is a narration of the alleged conversation between Krishna and Arjuna on the battle field following Arjuna’s refusal to fight.
Of the eighteen chapters of the Gita, it is only in two, the second and third, where Krishna instructs Arjuna of his duties as a warrior on a battlefield and why in certain situations war becomes necessary and the reasons why Arjuna had to fight that War. The rest of the text is Krishna revealing his true identity and discusses soul, religion, yoga, philosophy etc.
This was a conversation between two individuals about a specific task at hand. A war declared by two armies.
Krishna does not advice battle against ALL “non-believers”, idolators, or establishing a global hindu nation - as does the text in Quran; which gives a directive to fight a war against:
1. oppression and injustice - (I have no problems with that).
2. against non-believers who refuse to believe.
I have serious objections to that. It goes against my fundamental belief in equal human rights.
If, in this 21st century, ever a movement arises says the Gita (based on those two chapters of Gita) gives hindus the directive 1. to be intolerent of all other religions, 2. to wage wars to convert the entire world into hinduism 3. or to kill to wipe out a religion in entirely - I will be one of the firsts to denounce it and burn those pages of Gita.
I expect all “moderate” muslims to do the same about their Laws of Jihad. Either ADMIT that these extremist killings is their way of waging a war for their objective of spreading islam and converting others or remove those directives permanently.
I am fed up of hearing that those who kill in the name of Islam are not muslims. That is hypocrisy.
The Biggest problem with the present day Islam is that, When People Like Osama Bin Laden creates/orchestrates 9/11, or if there is an issue with that of any Terrorist activities anywhere in the world in the name of Islam, NO MAULAWI or NO IMAM EVER STOOD UP AGAINST IT, thats what make me wonder why are they so tolerant of the name of the "abuse" of their religion???
@ AWMYTH, still you are trying to make wrong meanings of my statements. . . And the question you asked as i am one of the terrorist. There is nothing to say but still aapka dil rakhne k liye jawab de raha hun...
1. In the last 21 years of my life, i never find a line in Quran which told to kill others. None of my family members, my muslim friends or any Maulana told me to kill people of other religion. 2. As i am not the member of these groups, i dont know their motives. . .lol. . . For me, they are terrorist groups whatever is their agenda. 3. I just dont give a damn to what Zardari is saying. . . The only thing i know is that those terrorist attacked on my country and killed many innocent people.
@ Shaan333,
Bro, I'm afraid to say that "1. In the last 21 years of my life, i never find a line in Quran which told to kill others. " WILL not be able to stand up to the mark of Truth.
If you have an online edition/version of Koran there are good number of lines which are Anti-Semitic, completely and totally against the existence of Jews.
I dont know the exact versus, however there are references in Koran which calls to "kill the infidels" and those all who are behind this "Islamic Terrorism" exploit those lines and stirr up the crowd to encourage killings.
BTW, Bro the same can be found in any religion, the point is how you use a particular line from any religion in the sense of implementation.
In fact there is a propaganda about the word Jihad, too. . Jihad means ' Struggle ' and there are certain conditions to start the Jihad for religious purpose. . . But the terrorists and Few other people are always disgracing this word. Terrorists are using to justify their work on the basis of religion and others are using to disgrace a religion
@shaan. You are right. Jihad is just struggle for Allah and this terrorist tries to attack on the name of Allah.
Anyway. I have no idea of Quran as whole as I am not with that religion.
WDM2A bro, Jews and Christian holy figures are also important in Islam. . . If you will go through the history of all these three religions together then only you will come to know about everything stated in Quran about them. . . May be you wont believe but i studied all my life in a Christian missionary school and Jesus Christ is also a part of my life. I am going to churches with my christian friends whenever i am gettin the chance for that
Hey, I have had so many very close Muslim friends, and though we had kept our disagreements on different aspects, however that never ever meant that we were disrespectful or anything worse than that felt for any other.
I still rememeber every Eid being spent on the lavish luncheons brought by them, at the same time spending a good time eating a lot of goodies on Easter, XMas, Deepawali and Holi.
Where is that India, Where is that Hindu, Where is that Muslim, Xian or Indian?????
Why we are so entangled within the cruel means of "revange" towards each other???
I dont really mind, if you want to keep Judaism, Bahaism, Catholicism, Hindiusm, Jainism or any other faith per say, as long it allows the people of all faith to accept and respect our differences.
Sadly, at the moment, we see nobody standing up against this wave of extremism from the Muslim community itself and thats what shocks me!!
Btw, I'm a Christian myself, and despite the fact there are so many killings World Wide taking place against Christians, I will never ever use the name of Christ to kill anyone for the name of Christianity or Christ.
@awmyth,shaan33, wdm2a, I think the debate here can be solved by pulling out exact texts from Quran - which preach that all jews and infidels need to be killed. I have just heard quran says such things, never seen with my eyes. Now if Quran does such say things, I would say that the progressive muslims need to amend Quran or explain the proper meaning to the world in case it has been misinterpreted. Only awareness amongst people(Muslims and non muslims) can solve this labelling of Islam as a terorrist religion.
@ CricketGod, its ok if you are having not much idea about Quran. . . But you know what buddy, i studied Ramayan and Bible too. . .it was in my school sylabus, Sanchipt Ramayan and The Bible ( both were the small versions of the real books ). . . I am great. . .lol :)
Shaan bhai!!
Tussi Great ho ;-)
No. I dont mean I dont have idea of Quran. I have atleast enough idea then those terrorist. Well I have learnt about all religions from the wikipedia. (I just say I have not whole idea of the religios books, but whatever I have is more then a common man of that religion)
Well said Garfield bro. . . .but yar mere user id mein ek 3 kam kyon kar diya :-( ?
3 is my lucky number yar ;-)
Well to be honest, I hadn't given awmyth's article a look. I just did and he seems to have posted from Studying Islam. Shaan do you recall seeing anything like that in Quran...?
@ garfield:
I had realised from your comments that most of you hadn't even read my article. Thanks for confirming.
Every muslim has a duty to read the Quran, and is fully aware of its content. To plead ignorance is just hypocrisy. But will avoid at all cost any direct questions. that is what Shaan333 and many like him is so successfully doing. And all you guys make it easy for him.
So try to find the truth for yourselves - about the laws of Jihad, also find out about Ummah or Ummah Wahida in the Quran. Find out what a Caliphate was and why the driving force of al-Quaeda is to re-establish an islamic caliphate - not for business/profit/power - but for Islam. So that the whole world is under Shariya law. If you are a "non-believer" you either convert or live like a second class citizen as a and pay a jizya tax for being a non-believer in an islamic state.
This is what the Islamic terrorists are fighting for - and will not stop till they have achieved their aim. this is what no muslim will acknowledge - although they all want this - they have to as it is their devout belief.
We Hindus are too lazy to find out for ourselves - its time we got of our lazy backsides.
I submit articles here for you guys to read, not to get publicity - I get enough linkbacks from bloggers across the globe.
Its pointless submitting articles if they are not read. Reason I am quitting Rambhai.
Not yet bro. . . In fact, its mentioned about Jehad for many conditions but not a condition like these terrorists are using
@shaan lets get specific here for the benefit of all those who happen to read this really good discussion. What do you think are the specific conditions Qurans says which allows for Jihad, are all factions in Islam in agreement with the same interpretation?
I agree with wdm2a, the mullahs and the key islamic people should explain to the people what Quran really meant by Jihad. Otherwise I'm afraid some muslims would always be subject to misdirection.
I saw one post on Rambhai, in which it was mentioned that Maulwis are on a worldwide mission to clear misconception about Islam. . . I'l try to post link here
All of you guys please keep voting for this link, so that it enters the hall of fame.
how much vote is needed to enter hall of frame
Islam says Jihad for religious reason only when the religion is in trouble and for the safety of it. . . Honestly speaking, as i am not a religious scholor, i cant tell line by line. But i know the basics and thats what i am sharing here
Just to add my 2 pennies worth.Definitely all Muslims are not terrorists,nor support terrorism,nor benefit from it but the term islamic terrorism has become a reality because there is in existence a world wid web of terror that derives its sustenance from an extreme islamic ideology.Saudi Arabia,only now is beginning to withdraw books from its school libraries that openly preach hatred for non muslims and justify their annihilation.There have been definitely excesses committed in the name of islam and the saudi oil money has managed to export this intolerant version to all corners of the world.It will take time to reverse that tide.It is in this context that i feel that comapring Islamic terrorism to "Hindu"terrorism is an overkill and wrong.
It is muslims' religious belief perhaps duty to spread Islam: to take over the entire world - either by numbers (hence do not practice birth control) by conversions or by force.
In this 21st century it is no longer possible to invade other countries at will (like the Mahmud of Ghazni) and slaugter or convert at the point of a sword.
The world order has changed - there are (non Shariya) Law - Declaration of Human Rights that protect our rights to remain "non-believers". So the need for "terror" to achieve that global spread of Shariya law as directed by Quran.
Are muslims terrorists? Perhaps not. But they do not see any thing wrong if terror is used to spread Islam. Why no Mawlawi / Imam will ever denounce it.
The paradox here is, the more devout a muslim is - the more extreme are his views (ie the Talibans) the more likely they will resort to terrorism. They deny these are "terrorist" - for in every muslim heart these are holy warriors on a religious quest.
Oh, but if a Hindu stands up to say, enough is enough - we are not going to take this anymore - they are "hindu terrorists" - so very convenient.
Shaan333 may not be a terrorist, but he is on a quest - ask him what is Hizb-ut-tahrir- and what are their objectives; for he may well be a member.
The rest of you hindu guys, who would rather believe the likes of him instead of finding it for your yourself - you sicken me.
Even Islam says to start Jihad in yourself to destroy all of your bad habits. . .
I think people misunderstood the Quran or writer made some mistake in telling right meaning of pharses.
Muslim Terrorist, Hindu Terrorist. . It all started now. When i was a kid, i was listening about Kashmiri militants, Assami militants, Naxalites but its all changed now
AWMYTH, yar you are talking about Al Qaida and Sharia Law. . What do u think about me? That i am a guy who is blindly following his religion. You know what, if there will be Sharia law then there will be no place for people like me. I am a 21st century guy and i am just like you all. . Do you think Al Qaida or Sharia ppl will consider me as a true muslim? . . . NO. . . I can bet that i am worse than any of you if you will consider me an Urbanised Spoiled Brat. . . So dear its just idiotic to talk about these things as its easier to blame others.
I consider you to be a very clever propagandist.
I have had numerous debates/arguments with similar individuals. It does not take long to recognise one. It becomes so easily obvious when questioned directly about the Quran, for you can only EVADE but cannot DENY what the Quran says.
On one hand you claim you have not read the Quran, but you try to argue with certainty that Quran does not call for killing of non-believers.
You have been asked specifically - if you have come accross such text in the Quran, you reply very cleverly,
1.Not yet bro. . . In fact, its mentioned about Jehad for many conditions but not a condition like these terrorists are using
2. In the last 21 years of my life, i never find a line in Quran which told to kill others. None of my family members, my muslim friends or any Maulana told me to kill people of other religion.
That does not say that such texts do not exist.
It does exist, and as a muslim you must have read every bit of Quran and know it. Yet you do not have the guts to admit it.
Earlier you tried to insinuate that the mumbai killings could have been carried out by other religions. No it wasn't. the entire world (except muslims ofcourse) knows it - including the killer himself.
If you indeed are an Indian, you are a traitor.
For all I know, you may belong to organizations like Hizb-ut-tahrir and like other members you have been assigned to Rambhai.com to spread cleverly confuse the issue and spread dissent.
A hindu organisation carried out Mumbai killing - you slipped up big time.
AWMYTH, man you made me laugh this time. . No birth control to increase population of muslims. May be decades back, people were like that but I dont think anybody will think like that now. . Its really crazy. . Lol. . .
You didnt noticed that i mentioned in a comment that a huge group of Maulana are working worldwide to clear the misunderstandings about Islam
That would be a great great thing!!! God Bless Them!!!
Yaar, tum to mere piche hi lag gaye aur har baat pe raid mar rahe ho tum. . . Specially now you are trying to prove that i am the member of terrorist organisation. . .lol. . . Chill Man
I am not trying to prove anything - you are doing it well by yourself. The more you avoid answering - the more you confirm your dishonesty.
You try to insinuate that HINDUS COULD HAVE CARRIED OUT THE MUMBAI KILLINGS. It makes me question your motive.
You would rather talk to the gullible and naive hindus here who will believe your garbage without questioning.
If they still have not recognised you as a progandist - its their problem. I am done with you.
Sure, laugh - the last form of deception.
I had mentioned one of the ways islam wants to take over the world is by increasing muslim population - "PROLIFERATION". What you say about people may think today is irrelevent - what is relevent here is what is written in the Quran. During India's Emergency, the loudest voice against Sanjay Gandhi's family planning programme was from the muslim clerics.
http://www.islamonline.com/news/newsfull.php?newid=833
In Islam contraception is only permitted under mutual agreement between the husband and wife, if it does not cause harm, if it is not practiced on a permanent basis. Birth control is the complete opposite of proliferation, which in principle is approved and recommended in Islam.
Allah (swt) has requested Muslims to increase the birthrate, not control it, i.e not to decrease the birthrate nor restrict it. The request has been linked with praise for those who seek a large family. Therefore, proliferation is recommended rather than undesirable, which means that it is a recommended (mandub) action and not just permitted (mubah).
I did see that you mention maulanas working worldwide. To try and divert attention from the (so called non-muslim) terrorists kills their way to a global Islamic Ummah.
Give me straight answers. No evasions.
What is an Islamic Ummah and the Islamic caliphate - the ULTIMATE GOAL of Al-Qaeda?
Who are dhimmis - and what is Jizya tax?
Bhai Awmyth,
Chhad yaar, its ok... there is a solution if we all are chill and discuss it out.. please cool down man....
Our Shaan is not a Jihadi, atleast he doesnt proclaim it on rambhai yaar...
And regarding your points on Islam and her Jihadis, I want to know then why the heck they have been yanking each other too???
and Shaan bhai, if you really want to see how things are getting bad in the name of Islam, please try to make a visit to UK, esp London area, you will shocked to the extent things are going on and the reasons given behind it. Its insane, atleast makes me sick, that it has been changed from a normal religion to everything else.
@ wdm2a,
I honestly do not care who or what this Shaan is, he wrote a comment contradicting what I wrote in my article - I asked him to prove what he said. He is still avoiding it. If he had his way - he would have first diverted the discussions to "hindu terrorism" and finally to Kashmir. The muslim propagandists are so predictable.
On the issues of muslims fighting muslims - it is not Islam fighting Jihadis, it is the battle between Sunni muslims and Shias since the death of Mohammed. And it is about who are the rightful heir of the guardianship of Islam. They both have different interpretation of the Sharia Law. The Shi'as from what I understand have a strict theology while the Sunnis applies analogies - consensus and innovations to the Quran and Sunnah.
Look at this map - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:MuslimDistribution2.jpg it may help you understand the internal killings of Islam. Shi'a Muslims, though a minority in the Muslim world, constitute the majority of the populations in Iran, Azerbaijan, Bahrain and the southern Iraq. The rest of the islamic world is Sunni.
The Taliban's ideology is a form of sharia: combining Pashtun tribal codes, with radical Deobandi (Sunni) interpretations of Islam favored by Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam (JUI) along with the Wahhabism of the Saudis (the $$$ has its influences) and the jihadism and pan-Islamism (for a caliphate) of Osama bin Laden.
Even after 9/11 Musharraf had openly confirmed he would save the Talibans. http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/pakistanpresident.htm The original text is copyrighted so I will not quote here.
You will not find the muslims telling you these - instead they are trying hard to brand hindu revenge killings as "terrorism".
"Terrorism" is the systematic use of terror as a means of coercion - to achieve a goal. Hindu "revenge killings" are - crime of murder. It cannot be termed as "terrorism" till it is used systematically as a tool of coercion. It is not.
@awmyth, I dont think shaan should be accused of being a terrorist. He is a student in Kerala and obviously is not as knowledgable and experienced as you are and hence not able to debate all your questions. Even if a boarder here was a terrorist, he has right to express himself here. Perhaps by having these debates here we could avoid fighting with guns.
About hindu terrorism - An act of murdering innocent people en masse is terrorism. Hindu/muslim or any other religion. If you have to take revenge ,youshould revenge against people who orchestrate and undertake killings.Malegaon acts fall under terrorism, just like 26/11 falls under terrorism. True revenge would be attacking the camps where terrorist receive training. I wonder if we have theguts for that.
Hot debate.
Should not we end the debate with fair conclusion. Well it doesn't look to get stop.
@ garfield,
it seems you again jump to conclusions and write without knowing the facts.
1. I have said he may well be a member of Hizb-ut-tahrir. That is not a terrorist organisation. That is an organisation that "preaches" pan-islamisation. Like the maulawis he keeps referring about.
2. try and understand the difference between murder and genocide and "terrorism".
This debate cannot end easily. What Islamic clerics and upholders need to do is absolve Islam of the bad name/publicity its getting.
AWMYTH, i dont know what you wanna hear from me? I blamed Musharraf many times but still you are talking about the same thing. . . And you are talking about your question. I gave the answers for them. May be i am younger than you but its you who is behaving like a kid and repeating the same question again and again. . How the hell i can tell you whats the funda of Hizb? Many times you claimed that i am a terrorist. It really made me laugh. . . .lol. .
And you are blaming me that i said that Hindu Terrorist did that. Yar aapke dimag ki batti sach mein gul hai. I was talking about any extremist group but you can always get the wrong meaning from my statements, just like terrorists are doing with Islam and Quran. . . Now i dont find much difference between the state of mind of a terrorist and you. . Lolz. . .
And you are just behind me here. . CricketGod also once said that his friends are having doubts that politicians organised that crime. . . There is a long list of questions available on Rediff in which Indian public of All religion are asking questions about Mumbai Terror Attack. Even RSK posted that link here on Rambhai. . . But you are having problem with me only cause you know my identity
In fact, i can guess that why you are behaving like this. . You accepted that you started this debate as i went against any of your points,mentioned in the article. Being honest, maine to aapke article pe nazar bhi nahi dali. . . Lolz. . . The way you said that you want to quit Rambhai, is showing itself that you cant tolerate if anyone is going against your views. . . In your words, Islamic Terrorist are doing same thing. So whats the difference betwen you both? You are not in physical contact with me otherwise the way you are talking about to kill Muslims, i dont think that you will miss the chance to kill me. Specially when i am torturing you mentally since last few days. . . .lolz
seems like your mind is tuned at a particular frequency known as Anti-MUSLIM. ,you cant think beyond that. . . . Feeling pity for you bro. . . Well now i am not gonna come here for the next few days. So you can say anything about me here. Go against my views, abuse me or whatever. . . I just dont give a damn. . Thats What And Thats How I Am. . .
GOD BLESS YOU BRO
@ Shaan333, -
a typical PROPAGANDIST response. Specially calling anyone who does not fall for your propaganda is an ANTI-MUSLIM.
I am not "behind" you - you have contradicted my article, I am simply challenging you to prove yourself. But you ofcourse are going into hiding leaving unanswered questions.
You write comments starting AWMYTH - I give you my answer. You make comments about my "dimag" - you be prepared to receive answers.
Even the mumbai KILLER HIMSELF admits he is Pakistani and a muslim - you DO NOT accept it. You explain why.
Why, EVEN AFTER THE KILLERS ADMISSION OF HIS IDENTITY - you can write "3. Any Indian extremist group did that ( any religion) " - why you still say "(ANY RELIGION)".
I am quitting rambhai because the members here have proved that they do not read what is written before starting discussions - and their arguments are based on hearsay. It is their choice if they wish to believe in muslim propaganda. I have no intentions to. Neither do I wish to have someone here tell me what I write - or tell me if comments are "too strong words".
You admit you "went against my point". That gives me the right to asked you to justify your argument. I asked you DIRECT question, I do not want to know what "people" on rediff think RSK has submitted OR Cricketgod has said about his friends.
I want YOUR answers. I wanted to know YOUR beliefs. What have you got to hide?
You answer me -
1. is AZAM AMIR KASAB - a hindu?
2. is AZAM AMIR KASAB - a muslim - and do not give me the crap that he is a no longer a muslim.
3. is OSAMA BIN LADEN a muslim or a hindu
4. is AL-QAEDA a muslim or an hindu organisation.
5. What is an ISLAMIC CALIPHATE? - The ultimate RELIGIOUS goal of "islamic terrorism" and Bin laden.
6. Can you, a muslim, personally condemn the belief that the world should ONLY be governed by the SHARIA LAWS.
Good try, the uppercase letter. But I am not "ANTI-MUSLIM". I am
ANTI- muslims' disregards for INDIVIDUAL HUMAN RIGHTS
ANTI- muslims' INTOLERANCE of ALL OTHER RELIGIONS,
ANTI- muslims' JIHAD against non-believers
ANTI- muslims' call for Islamic CALIPHATE
ANTI- PAKISTAN'S continuous efforts to DAMAGE INDIA
above all I am ANTI- the lying and hypocritical words of muslims who do not have the guts to admit what they really believe in.
You say you do not give a damn if I go against "YOUR VIEWS" - you haven't given your views - you have so far arguing based on hearsay. I do GIVE A DAMN about what the muslim propaganda has achieved.
Sure GO INTO HIDING - save you from answering questions you dare not answer.
Dost aaj baat karne ka time nahi hai. I have to pack my bag, have to charge my phone and have to put songs in all of my music players. . . So when i wil be back, aaram se pange liye jayenge. . . Ha ha ha. . .take care bro
hey awmyth, did u felt bad abt my argument....
in a nut shell i just wanna say that these terrorists who attacked Mumbai were from Pakistan.....they have interpreted Islam in their own way and are using it to save themselves and gain sympathy from all muslims.....
so ur hatred against these group is justified, but why do u feel shaan is a member of such grps.... he has been a veteran of the site just like u.... both of you are pretty old members of rambhai.....
shaan is a Muslim and not a member of terrorist organization as per me but Pakistani terrorists are involved in the Mumbai attacks is confirmed.....
so now just forget this issue and dont quit this site.... my day is unfinished without reading your article.........
Its about to end from my side now. . My exams are over and i am going home. So next few days, i wont come here. . . But dont worry guys i am not gonna quit Rambhai like Others:) . . . I will be back like Terminator. . . .lolz
garfield,wdm2a,denny,awmyth,j2imu take care and have fun guys
Hope you come back as terminator.